Idiots! | Clan of the Angry Monkey (FFXI)

For those who Run Garrison

Submitted by Tamara on Wed, 03/08/2006 - 23:35.

This comment is for those handling Future Garrison Treasure Pools...

Basically Maior is correct in that the mods SE has implemented are a bit tiresome for loot distribution. What you are looking at (post sales) is one of two scenarios:

a) the one I used -> track folks down. Seems to consume 3 to 4 hours of FFXI play time

b) the one I did not use -> tell folks you have their gil and let them come to you. My suspicion is that you will end up with about 80,000 gil no one ever bothers to pick up. Personally I refused to go the b) route because holding onto someone else's gil really bothers me.

this is true...

Submitted by Drifter on Wed, 02/22/2006 - 03:15.

{fact}

Eh..

Submitted by Milotheshort on Tue, 02/21/2006 - 09:08.

Maior your point is valid. i've been saying that from the start. We don't have a true economic cycle in this game. Gil is introduced and never expended from the cycle. The result is compounded inflation, driving down the buying power. To really fix an inflation problem, SE would have to act like an impossing thumb and regulate the costs of goods to make sure there is FMV(Fair Market Value). Or institute taxation. Many players already think items are over taxed in the game. The problem is really seeded deeper. Think for just a second how many people play this game. Ok got a number? Now think what percentage of those are persons between 10-17. Got a number? Most 10-17 don't understand basic principles in econmics, hence they become a contributor to inflation. Its easy for Joe Blow age 14 to get mommy and daddy to buy gil for christmas, and joe blow then goes and takes this money and frivles it away on overpriced goods. Sellers in this game don't even grasp the concept of underbiding others for the sake of moving product. Instead we get the opposite effect we would expect to see. Since Joe has unlimited resources, joe will continue to buy products above there going rate. other sales persons don't undercut rather they inflate the cost of the goods because they see that joe has purchased 5x of there goods in a row without even trying to lower the bids. Now it gets even better. of those that don't fall into joe's catagory how many do you think have a concept of economics? Probly not to many more. So how can we expect to fix a problem when no one else really cares. One more thing i'd like to mention, i don't know how many MMO's you've played before, but the reason there is so much gill in cycle now is because of a common practice called DUpeing. when you DUpe multiple copies of the same item can be made. Now if you go and read SE's notes they say this was the straw to break the camels back. They weren't concerned with RMT rather the fact that so much gill was being flooded into the economy at one time. The problem with impossing increased taxation is you hurt new players and legitimate players. If there is one thing i have observed more than anything in this game its been the economy. It directly effects crafters. I wish they would open up more sales slots for crafters, that way you'd see a huge influx of materials on the market and goods too. If theory pans out the prices should drop sharply. As a WW i'm glad with the changes to arrows. I wish they would do that with more goods. if they don't allter the compisition recipes to use 33 arrow heads we should be able to observe the following: Arrow prices to drop. why? well if a smith/alch/gold/ can produce 33 heads at a time and a CC can produce 33 at a time, and they all stack to 99 then as a ww i buy 99 heads and 99 fletchings, i still have to purchase 12 stacks of earth cry and 12 stacks of wood, but if i can produce 33 arrows with the old 1:1:1:1 ratio the prices will fall. I still haven't explained why have i? Well if the other crafters are churning out more goods at the same expense as before (higher effcience) the goods should maintain the same cost value, however i can purchase more than before at this same price, i there for save money on my production costs. When i save this money in productions i can and will choose to produce more arrows. This inturn will flood the market. The market once saturated will have goods returned. Argo lost profits (time is money) so since i saved money in production i can afford to lower the cost of my goods thus the savings are passed onto the consumer. Its why i felt WW was one of the better crafts to begin with. a high lvl crafter gains opertunities to better produce goods, with this up'd production he can under bid and eventual drive out the competion. Its the basic principle of a monopoly. ^^ clothcraft in my opinion is a poor money maker, why the goods aren't consumeable. Cooking is better but still not as good, because +1 synsths are denoted as such which doesn't increase the effeciance of creation. well i'm tired and kinduv blabbing on. But ya maior the 1mill is an inconvenience. Oh well what are you gonna do eh?

Not so..

Submitted by Alerith on Fri, 02/24/2006 - 19:43.

Gil is introduced into the economy and is expended in many places. You buy from the AH, your gil leaves the system. You buy from an NPC, gil leaves the system. Even if you have 10 million gil for more than a year, eventually it is going to leave the system when you purchase something. The problem is not that it never leaves the system, but that it keeps ENTERING the system. If you have so much gil, you should be capped, so as to keep the economy in check. If you capped to the limit of gil you can have, then there is going to be a limit as to how much you sell something for.

Example: (Only an example, I'm not implying these limits)

You have a limit of 1 million gil at any given time. Say you already have, say, 600k. You have an Emperors Hairpin and want to sell it for the best possible value. According to the NM report on this site, the Hairpin is going for about 1 mill in itself. Well whats the point of selling it for 1 mill if you have 600k and you cant exceed 1 mill? Therefore, to get the best possible value without losing anything, you would sell it for 400k to get you to the maximum. BOOM. Suddenly the price of an Emperors Hairpin just went down by 600k gil. Now say someone comes along with 700k and buys the hairpin. They are down to 100k. Now they decide they want to sell the hairpin, but since there is a limit to 1 million gil now, whats the point of selling it for such an outrageous price? Now this person sells it back for 600k to break even or even 700k to make a 100k profit. Either way, the price is still less than what it started as. Now the hairpin is up to 700k, someone can buy it again and the price will vary in a general area.

um... ok you obviously have never even taken econ 101

Submitted by Milotheshort on Sat, 03/11/2006 - 04:44.

they have a cap its called 99,999,999,999 its not the size of the cap that causes inflation... obviously your not familuar with the causes of WWII do some history research or get an economics book then correct me.
-> Fort Knox Gold Supply => minted US currency v.s. dollar purchasing power... circa late 50's pro v quid late 60's and nixon

-> Dimond regulation => debers

->WWII => causes (if you think hitler was the cause of WWII i suggest you read more than game spot magazine my friend

->U.S. Civil War => industry

->Aluminum production v.s steel prior to refining techniques

->Coppers industral index => copper and your fortune

these are several subjects i suggest looking into before commenting on economic issues.

Inflation is the result of an influx of one good directly altering the value of another good. Paper currency isn't the only thing that is "inflated."

Idealy if everyone in game wasn't so lazy... goods idealy would sell for competitive values between the value an npc is willing to buy them from you for and a value competitive with how much an npc is willing to sell that good for. 10x for a +1 isn't a gain for crafters and they aren't ripping you off after all they took the time to create a new market that you didn't think would be lucritive.
So please do some research before inserting a bias opinion on the matter.

Not quite

Submitted by ravenclaw on Fri, 02/24/2006 - 19:59.

You buy from the AH, your gil leaves the system.

This is not true in the least.

When you buy from the AH, your money is merely transfered to another player in the game. Thus, your money does not leave the system.

You buy from an NPC, gil leaves the system

This isn't true necessarily.

If you buy a resellable item from an NPC you are simply transforming gil into an item. That item can later be resold so the gil has not necessarily been lost.

The only real exceptions to this are perishable items and other things that do not give you resellable things (like Chocobos).

The problem is not that it never leaves the system, but that it keeps ENTERING the system.

No, the problem is both.

Money does exit the system in the form of AH taxes (only for sellers), Jeuno Bazaar taxes, Chocobos, and the like, but it is quite small in comparison to the money coming into the system.

The vast majority of the gil in this game is simply transfered or transformed.

What Sam was pointing out was that the gil sinks are all too small to account for the ammount of money ccoming into the game (which is a point I think you pretty much got, just missed some key details.)

RavenclawX/Ranger

i agree

Submitted by Milotheshort on Sat, 03/11/2006 - 04:49.

and with a patch to the rate at which chocobo cost has been adjusted we'll see an inflation period down the road... i think SE needs to read some too... all they do is frustrate me with there damn theories on how to solve problems there only stimulating (yes befer anybody says i should use thier and not there no i consider SE an entity not a being)

Good thing...

Submitted by cyclonus on Mon, 02/20/2006 - 21:50.

You didn't check Tam's old RMT post on page 2 - I made a post about this around 2 PM EST. So... I didn't have to break the news to you after all.

POL-1160

Submitted by Tamara on Mon, 02/20/2006 - 22:28.

None of this really matters since at this rate I won't be playing the game again! LOL!

Yup, can't connect to get even a tiny bit of my many, many, megs of PC game-data! =^_^=

LOL! Maior, you get too hot!

Submitted by Tamara on Mon, 02/20/2006 - 21:33.

Really Maior, this just changes the dynamics a bit.

For Garrison Loot Distribution it just means you will have to hunt down the Treasurer, not that big of a deal. For our last Garrison that would be me. Garrison is already limited to members of two Linkshells so communication linkage is well established.

Someone who does not want to look me up, and have me trade them their gil, I guess you are flush and do not want your gil! But you earned it (whatever it comes out to be) so I will try to send you a /tell.

Not that big a deal. If the GM contacts me I will just point him/her to this web site. Nothing shady about what we are doing =^_^=

Speaking of RMT

Submitted by Tamara on Tue, 02/21/2006 - 08:15.

I think the gil buyers are running scared at the moment - things are selling poorly, prices are dropping in Jeuno. Just glancing around Rolanberry Fields it looks like bazaar prices are decreasing, day by day.

I am sure something is still going up, though. Wish I owned that something! LOL!

On Garrison Loot we have sold one pole and one axe and had numerous other items returned already.

RMT not causing inflation!

Submitted by sam on Tue, 02/21/2006 - 15:06.

The simple fact is that RMT/gil-sellers are not the ones causing inflation these days!!!

Need proof? Look at all the items that have shot up and how you obtain them:

Scorp. Harness : I purchased for 9mil, saw it peak at around 25mil. This is crafted from rare drops from a BCNM. High level craft, end-game BCNM. Not something that gil-sellers do.
Skyrocketting NIN tools : When I started leveling NIN again my Shihei bundles were less than 100k. Last I checked they were 600k and rising. Kuramai (sp?) is now up to 900k per bundle. Again, these are crafts. Gil sellers don't need to level up crafting this high because they can just fish rings and desynth them to ingots.
Vermillion Cloak : Wasn't paying much attention, but it did go from around 10mil to 25mil. Again, a high level synth.

I could go on, but I've made my point. The point is that normal players are influencing inflation more than gil sellers. The problem is not monopolizing of pricy items (which is what gil sellers traditionally do) but the influx of gil into the system without any real gil sinks to get it back out of the system.

Thus, if SE really wants to combat inflation, this is a stupid way to go about it.

I get mad because I'm someone who generally does a pretty good job of thinking things through. I've very rarely gotten irritated at SE's decisions in the past (the TP nerf from two years ago made sense, as did the NIN and RNG ones). But this really is an idiotic solution to a rather obvious problem.

Vis Maior's Journeys

http://maior.samhart.net/

Unfortunatley i disagree 100%

Submitted by Gaara on Fri, 02/24/2006 - 07:07.

I agree with you fer starters that the gil delivery bindings are pretty gay. However you are very wrong about RMT causing inflation and here is why also using some of the items you mentioned.

1st of all Scorp Harness- Venomous Claw that is used to synth it is dropped by many more things than just bcnm... i.e. King Vigaroon, Serket, Tyranic Turoc, Amacury (er however you spell that), Ghenbu, Suzaku..... etc etc. all of which are camped by gil sellers.

2nd Vermy Cloak- Damascene Cloth dropped by King Arthro, Adaman King, Tcee Xiccu the manifest, Suzaku... again all camped by gil sellers.

3rd the Higher ups of the gil seller ranks actually do have synthing lvled and they are only used to craft, they dont distro or camp and therefore stay under the radar of SE.

However besides all of that the main way the gil sellers influence the inflation of our economy is indirect but still their fault. They had gil prices so low and had a monopoly on all the high gil drop items that ppl would forgo the effort of camping against them they would spend $20 and buy like 10 mil. Therefore gil buyers wouldn't respect or care about the amount of gil they spent of stupid items that that they would pay rediculous amounts of gil and just go re-up their gil supply with very little real world money.

RMT is a very corrupt very difficult problem for SE to have to deal with and i fully support SE if they are gonna try to put an end to it even through gustapo means. So lets look at their moves as a positive though for the short term it will cause us all some inconvenience. All in all they are trying to listen to the concerns of us players and make our gaming experience more managable, so go go team SE.

I think you missed the point entirely

Submitted by ravenclaw on Fri, 02/24/2006 - 13:59.

I think you missed Sam's point entirely.

His point was that this inflation is not caused by RMT but by the complete and total lack of gil sinks in the game.

Every time you get a gil or item drop in the game new gil is made. It really doesn't matter who got the drop (gil sellers or normal players). The problem is that there are no really effective ways to get gil back out of the game. There's no really effective "gil sinks".

In the real world, inflation can be staved by getting money out of one market (country, government securities, banks, etc) and into another. Inflation itself is generally controlled through the settings of interest rates. These interest rates are effectively "money sinks" whereby money is removed from the system.

What Sam was saying (but I'll admit he didn't do a great job of explaining it) is that FF lacks any similar measure. Taxing of AH sales in Jeuno, Chocobos, these things are tiny and do an insufficient job. NPCs that sell items really don't remove money from the system as they simply transform the money into re-sellable goods.

Thus, by simply placing a limit of how much someone can send over the delivery service is not solving the problem. It's just inconveniencing everyone. Gil sellers can and will get their gil sales to people, they will just now have to use other means. How hard is it for them to keep a few mules in each town with stockpiles of money on them ready to trade to people as they buy gil? Not hard at all.

What Sam was saying was that in order to really fight inflation there needs to be better controls in the exchange and transfer of money. Like interest rates in the real world, there needs to be something that sucks money from the in-game economy in a way that is universal to all players (gil seller or otherwise).

Simply placing a limit on how much money can be transfered over one method of distributing gil in the game will do little to stop or stave off inflation, fight gil sellers, or anything other than just make transfering money more of a pain in the ass.

RavenclawX/Ranger

Right on man but...

Submitted by Milotheshort on Sat, 03/11/2006 - 05:49.

I think you back up maior's point here well...
But we must understand some other things too to get a better and clear picture on this issue.

Why intrest rates won't work in game?
First of all ppl are paying real money to play this game. Like in real life ppl hate government controls. Tax season has arrived! How many times did you grumble at how much of your wage was lost to a government with whom you agree with maybe 60% of the time? Do you think this is fair for them to levey taxes on you as a working citizen who general follows there laws? You'd see a massive exodus from ffxi if they impossed anual taxation. Is there a lvl tax because in there your more cappable of getting better drops? Do we want a class system to be introduced in ffxi? How far are we willing to push real world issues into ffxi?

Taxation
an effective "sink hole" for inflation true enough. but ppl want returns in the real world we have medicine, technology, roads and water works to name a few results of taxation. What would SE give us through taxation that they don't already provide through our real world transactions.

Real Life "Sink hole"
FFXI is an ideal environment-> the biggest decline of inflation in actual life is "Disasters." Be thay bad invesments; i know cincinnati has a sub way which never ran a train and was abandoned... still it exists no more than 2 miles from my dorm. It cost 6+million in 1886 which today would probly be around 600+ million... still concrete metal and man hrs were purchased for a usless structure. FFXI doesn't commission new works with gil.
Natural disasters; it rains in ffxi, but it doesn't monsoon... there is no hail, or tornados. Globally trillions of dollars are spent on incidents which have no correlation with human interaction. Loss of life, personal injury; we are talking fanasy here and we are reaping the benifit of this grand experiment... when you die in ffxi no labor is lost... the work force doesn't have to re-educate new menial labors. you can't be maimed to the point were you become a federal burdon. These are what nature uses as a system of brutal checks and balances. Life isn't fair... but we see what would happen in ffxi if it were.

Do we commission public works?
we can't make monuments in ffxi... how much money is wasted annual on making the facade of a building beutiful? or errecting a phailic symbol of a country's might? They have no real application. They use up valuable resources and occupie space better served as a farm field, or housing.

I know and respect maiors rationality with the "sink holes" but not enough "chaos theory" applies to in game. After all when is the last time you killed an Opo-opo and had hamlet drop?

We too soon forget the aspects of a competitive market too...
I've seen 100+ crystals on at a time, rather than make a competitive offer and drop the rates or to try and bid less on the going rate we see content individual who buy these crystal out right for full price.

Methods and solutions:
I had the breif pleasure of watching durr play wow for a month...
in wow armor becomes dmg'd, brittle then crumbles... what does this mean? Opertunity.

SE got one thing right... when you craft you can fail and lose goods, this causes demand. How ever they didn't make demand high enough... the only way players lose gear is by tossing it. So we creat a saturated market... there becomes no compition for lets say seeres gear why? we all own a set and will never have to replace it. Crafters can't move that product so they cut there losses and find something that sells.
->sol'n-> if gear is destroyed new goods will have to be purchased-> the old set = gil leaving the system. real crafters understand that arrows, nin tools, bullets generate the most money: potions, and food the second most because they have a high turn over and marketability.Armor and weapons do not!

when you die you don't lose anything of value (except exp which isn't a traded commodety and therefore has no worth) if you lost 20% of your goods you'd see money poor out of the system.

Pro farming: NM campers do make money i won't lie, but its little things like ores which hurt our economy any chemist can tell you that zinc shouldn't sell for more than silver ever. however the culture that ffxi includes is primitive. Silver nitrate is commonly used in medicine to treat infections, yet silver has no use other than jewlery in ffxi. Zinc was used as a filler for the U.s penny once it was determined that solid copper coins where worth more than one cent. Zinc by all means is a waste metal.
->sol'n-> and this is proactive. crafter regulate the price of goods, we determine how much we want to sell goods for on the market and how much we buy farmed good for. THese is solved by the crafter.
----------------------------------------------------------------
I prepose the following: We the English speaking crafters form a Linkshell-> crafters only can be determined by skill level like apron identifiers. In it we hold joint meating on what we want the value of (farmed item) to be set at. Once we agree on a fair market value we stick to that price and only purchase at or below the price set. This prevents farmers from causing us to raise prices to boost out margins. Farmers will regulate accodingly when several hundred of there product doesn't sell. this will hurt NM farmers far more than SE could ever. large corps do it all the time. however ppl are greedy and therein lies the problem.

Well go ahead and comment lol...

Maior's Point

Submitted by Tamara on Fri, 02/24/2006 - 20:19.

"His point was that this inflation is not caused by RMT but by the complete and total lack of gil sinks in the game."

That was one of his points, the other point was that if you have no sinks there is no way for the water to drain out - this implies a faucet turned on. Here is what Maior said about a 'faucet':
"every time you kill a gob, gil is introduced into the economy"

I said nothing at the time but I think this last point was not well thought through. When you kill a gob it does not introduce gil into the FFXI economy in sufficient amounts to approach the rate of inflation we were seeing. All that is introduced when the mob is killed are new items. Proconsul was defeated last night in a fight I witnessed and I do not recall one piece of gil being dropped.

In Square Enix's post; however, there was a mention of the system being 'fudged', of the existence of some kind of major 'faucet':
"the GMs carried out a detailed investigation of this problem, and discovered the existence of a group using illicit methods to produce large amounts of gil"
http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/information/060209.html

So if you want to talk the history of economic systems there is too much inflation when there is too much money and historically that is mostly a case of too much being manufactured (being printed and released through a banking system). Sinks exist to take the money out as it is produced. For most countries the main sinks are the population grows (not really happening in FFXI) or individual consumers desire more (consume more) individually (this is happening). For most countries the major 'faucets' are a treasury department printing gil (in FFXI this is via selling items to vendors) and a banking system distributing recently printed notes through low-interest loans (no such banking system that I know of in FFXI).

At this point in time most Auction Houses prices appear to be retreating, so I would say that possession of gil is now viewed by those having it as 'a good thing'; before the goal was to convert the gil into a new item because your new item might retain its value while you knew your gil surely would not. This leads me to believe there was probably some kind of faucet associated with RMT which has recently been turned off.

Killing BCNM Monster X and taking his/her drops to an NPC vendor do not introduce that much gil into the system because NPC vendors do not offer you that much for your fresh drops. Using the cloth drops as examples - I think some of the cloth drops sell to other players for 13,000,000 gil? Tell me the name of a NPC vendor who will pay you 13,000,000 gil for any cloth drop?

I want to get to know that NPC better, if they exist =^_^=

Killing mobs do not introduce that much gil into the game - goblin gil drops might pay for one ride on the ferry. There is no banking/loan system in the game. There was likely some kind of 'faucet' in existance we have little to no clue about.

So if the faucet existed, and was turned off, then additional sinks are probably not needed.

Tam is one smart mithra

Submitted by rooster on Fri, 02/24/2006 - 23:11.

Tamara's post on the topic is the most intelligent thing I have read yet. Without some kind of an exploit, gil drops from mobs and sales to npcs can not explain the magnitude of the price inflation we have seen in this game lately. If indeed prices are now falling (which I believe they are) then SE has apparently already solved the problem. No new "gil sinks" are needed nor desired.

If more gil sinks are deemed necessary, the worst possible way to impliment them would be through new taxes. Taxes, as I see it, are where the state (in this case SE) simply takes your money and offers nothing in return. In contrast to a real state however, SE does have the power to create useful items "out of thin air" and sell them. Increasing the number of items available through npc sales would certainly be an effective and fair way to reduce the amount of gil in circulation.

At this point I would like to correct a fallacy I have seen repeated here. Buying an item from an npc can in NO WAY increase the game money supply. When you buy the item, the sales price is immediately removed from the game. If you sell the item back to the npc, you will get substantially less than you payed for it. If you sell it to another player, that player will be paying for it with money that was already in the game. In either case money has been removed from the game. In no case is new money created by buying items from npcs.

Similarly item drops from mobs do little to add money to the economy. The prices npcs pay for these items are very low. So most often, if they have any value at all, they are sold to other players. The player who buys the item buys it with money that was already in the game. This can not contribute to general price inflation. The sole exception to this would be something like "fish-botting" where a vast number of items are farmed with the intention of selling them to npcs rather than to other players. I believe SE has already taken and should continue to take measures to discourage this type of practice.

-Thersites

The Faucet

Submitted by sam on Fri, 02/24/2006 - 21:25.

I actually think I know what that post (700 accounts suspended) refered to.

Back in Jun. 2005, either shortly before or shortly after the patch that introduce VE and other NM "hate" (suddenly people were getting Empress Hairpins and the like) I came across large numbers of gil sellers camping specific watering holes deep in various dungeons.

I wrote about it here. I researched it quite a bit and discovered that normal (non gil seller) players were the ones who had done this first and the gil sellers just picked it up from them.

The basic gist of it was they were bot-fishing these specific spots for rings (I forget which ones right now) which they then had a central synther desynth into ingots. These ingots were then sold to NPCs, thus bypassing the AH altogether, and getting a fixed, chartable income per character.

By bypassing the AH and it's fluctuations, they got a set equation relating how many characters they had to how much income they could bring in per character.

As I said, this "trick" was known for a while before by many players, but because the gil sellers did it in such a big way with so many characters across so many servers it was much more noticable by Squeenix.

As I understand it, the trick no longer works, and this has pissed off a lot of the non-gil-seller players who used to exploit it (specifically, I hear people say that they "ruined it for everyone").

Anyway, if anything, this "700 account"-sting was likely related to this.... And I'm not really convinced this will do much for stopping gil sellers amassing or distributing their loot.

Vis Maior's Journeys

http://maior.samhart.net/

it wasn't fishing per-say

Submitted by Milotheshort on Sat, 03/11/2006 - 06:22.

thiefs often used a steal and hide method on gobs to get high amounts of gold beastcoins... they could in therory steal one beastcoin everytime the hide counter reset _> selling gold to an npc which is based not off of a current market system which adjust the value of gold like in the real world caused them to buy the coins at an inflated rate. Its the same method i used when lvl 5 to make money.... back when i started i exploited the npc ->AH market
i made 20,000 gil in less than 3 days. Buying items that sold for less on the Ah when compared to the offer by an npc_. its a real no brainer instant cash or wait for dumbass to buy it for little to no profit. Shell shield for instance used to sell in bastok for around 100 but sell to an npc for 127+ now 27 doesn't seem like much but since quads drop the shield and there were 100+ on at one point 27 soon became 2700. I used this method to go above that actual calculating how many bug broths i'd have to make and npc to make my first 1million gil... like i've said so many times before i could write a manual taht would make most ppls head spin on the crafting system... but my bigger profit makers are alas trade secrets. so it all comes down how much time you willing to spend now as opposed to how much you want to sell later. old method note this doesn't work like it did a year ago....

_> bug broth is low synthed 4 jugs per each npc's for 110 gill per
old prices-> 1k shell bugs 200? for lugworms and 500 for 12 water crystals. ok so to use all the water crystals you need 2 stacks of lugworms and 2 stacks of shell bugs -> total cost 2k + 400 + 500 = 2900 -> 12 synths =48 jugs (12x4) = 5280 gill - 2900 = 2380 gill profit: 421 * 12= 5052 synths to gain 1 million gill (these are my old notes: i'm only sharing this now because isn't feesible anymore with water crystals at 1.2-1.5k a stack and shell bugs at 2k a stack)
Research my friends is better than haste dealing with un scrupolus AH whores ^^ well good hunting

For anybody who asks i do have a notebook i keep on all crafting... i know how much i'll gain on each how much each item sells to npc's and what "other effects."

RE- The Faucet

Submitted by Gaara on Sat, 02/25/2006 - 08:22.

It is very true you are on the right track. I did indeed misread Maior's point partially. Though viable RMT inflation related items I did mention. However "The Faucet" so to speak Was indeed through fishing. It has a lil to do with silver ingots now, though the real gil was made with padded caps.

Before the restrictions on the old fishing system were made u could fish all day without getting "tired" howerver you would in turn fish up more items than fish. Gil sellers used this to their advantage and magnified it by achieving fishing mog house enhancement. With the employ of fish bots they would fish all day using lures to increase the item drop rate (as does fishing enhancment) and fish up rusty caps. With like a lv 34 smither u can turn rusty caps into padded caps and sell to an NPC for 4k. Now I know 4000 gil doesnt sound like much but multiply that by 24 hrs of fishing with the item drop increase and MH enhancement you have a full blown "Open Faucet" of gil entering with no real drain or vaccum.

Now this is really why the history the fishing system change came to be, blah blah blah. However this mountain of gil has been static in the servers for a long long time. Gil sellers of course still dominate all the big item drops but this is only a means of introducing new items, BIG money items to the market in order to keep hold of this big bank of gil they have their hands on. Therefore they conduct RMT so that you the online player has to buy gil from them so that you can in turn buy an item from them.

And again back to my point is where SE has done the honorable thing by listening to us the players and removing a percentage of the re-occuring bank roll and limiting distribution.

one last thing

Submitted by Milotheshort on Sat, 03/11/2006 - 06:38.

one last comment before i log for the night... yes yes my trolling for the night has come to and end /cry!

you have to include the cost of the crystal 4k is misleading they probly only really made 2k profit using that method... also dysthing rings to ingots would be more profitable since they stack to 12 40 slots x 12 = 480 ingots as compared too 40 caps really to its all dependent... if they hq strong caps they sell those to the market to line there purse... well whatevers night all,,,,

My View

Submitted by Tamara on Tue, 02/21/2006 - 19:13.

My view is that no one is farming/fishing/harvesting anymore - they have moved on to other games. That is why synthed items cost so much.

Fishing

Submitted by cyclonus on Tue, 02/21/2006 - 19:59.

I fish - buy all my crap!